Graduate school is a significant commitment and a transformative journey, and no one knows this better than Dr. Doug Zytko, an associate professor and Director of the Computing PhD as well as the Computer and Information Systems and Human Centered Design Masters degrees at the University of Michigan Flint. In this week’s Victor’s in Grad School podcast, Dr. Zytko shared his experiences and insights, offering valuable advice for those considering or currently undertaking graduate studies. Below, we’ll explore some key takeaways from Dr. Zytko’s journey and his recommendations for finding success in graduate school.

The Inception: Sparking the Decision to Pursue a PhD

Dr. Zytko’s path to graduate school wasn’t perfectly planned. While completing his bachelor’s degree at the New Jersey Institute of Technology, he found himself drawn to the role of professors—a profession held by both his parents. “To be a professor, I need to have a PhD,” he realized, leading him to apply for several PhD programs. Surprisingly, he faced multiple rejections, except from his alma mater, where his passion and notable GPA (3.96) caught the attention of faculty members.

Early Challenges and Realizations

Entering his PhD program, Dr. Zytko initially misunderstood the nature of doctoral studies. He believed his journey would be structured similarly to undergraduate education, relying heavily on others to guide his path. However, PhD programs demand a high degree of self-direction and the creation of new knowledge. “I didn’t understand that a PhD student has to formulate their own research agenda,” he reflected. Only two years in did he fully grasp the intensive, self-driven nature of the program, leading to a prolonged seven-year completion time.

Preparing for Graduate School: Tips for Prospective Students

1. Engage in Undergraduate Research: Dr. Zytko emphasized the importance of involving oneself in research during undergraduate studies. Not just for bolstering a CV, but for gaining a fundamental understanding of research processes.
2. Clear Career Goals: Ensure you have a defined reason for pursuing graduate studies. Avoid treating grad school as a pause button or a vague stepping stone; know why you are there and let all decisions follow from that purpose.
3. Consider the Master’s Path: If undergraduate research isn’t part of your background, pursuing a master’s degree before a PhD might be a more structured approach. This can provide essential research experience and a more tailored understanding of your field.

Finding Success During Graduate Studies

1. Be Comfortable with Discomfort: Graduate studies, particularly PhD programs, require a new level of time management and self-motivation. Don’t wait for others to dictate your schedule or goals.
2. No Plan B: Dr. Zytko shared that having no alternative career path kept him focused during challenging times. This level of dedication can be crucial for success.

Drawing from Experience: Reflecting on Dr. Zytko’s Advice

Dr. Zytko’s journey underscores the need for strategic preparation and genuine passion. From learning research fundamentals early on to maintaining focused drive despite challenges, his advice is rooted in real experience. For anyone considering graduate school, Dr. Zytko’s insights are invaluable.

Whether you are contemplating a master’s or diving straight into a PhD, understanding the journey ahead can make a substantial difference. Taking the time to gain research experience, having a clear career path, and staying committed to your goals are essential steps towards success in graduate school. And remember, it’s not just about getting the degree; it’s about growing intellectually and professionally to meet your greatest potential.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to the Victor’s in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Welcome back to Victor’s in Grad School. I’m your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, each week, we are on a journey together. And I call it a journey because it really is that. You thinking about graduate school, being in graduate school, wherever you are in this process of getting further education, and you will go through a journey because the experience is going to be different for every person. And what’s important though, is that there are things that you can do to be able to find success throughout every stage of this process. It’s not always going to be easy.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:56]:
There’s going to be some bumps in the road, most likely. But saying that, there are ways in which you can get some tools for your own toolbox, and be able to prepare yourself as well as you can to be able to enter grad school strong, to go through grad school strong, and be able to come out on the end of the process ready to go for the next phase of your life. So every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can talk about what they went through in going to graduate school themselves, and the experience that they’ve had since then that can help you on the journey that you’re on as well. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Doctor Doug Zitko is with us, and Doug is an associate professor at the University of Michigan Flint, but he’s also the director of graduate programs for the College of Innovation and Technology, as well as working specifically with our computer science program and our human centered design master’s degree program. So Doug has a lot of different experiences that have brought him to the place that he is today, and I’m really excited to have him here today. Doug, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:02:11]:
Of course. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:12]:
So one of the first things that I love doing is turning the clock back in time. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at the New Jersey Institute of Technology. And as you were going through and getting that bachelor’s degree in information technology, at some point, at some point, you got that spark. You got that push. And you decided for yourself to go from the bachelor’s degree and stepping further into getting a PhD in human computer interaction. Not every student’s gonna do that. So I wanna go back to that moment, that moment that you figured out for yourself. I wanna go to that next step.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:53]:
What made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:02:56]:
Well, it wasn’t a terribly thought out process. I was starting my senior year with my bachelor’s degree, and I was thinking about what am I gonna do when this year is over. And no one is telling me, you need to register for these courses and do this and be at this room at that time. And I really didn’t have an answer. What I concluded was that I wasn’t terribly passionate about the career choices that I was learning about in my major, which was information technology. The thing that excited me the most, which I didn’t expect, was the role of professor itself. You know, learning from professors in my classes who were very passionate about the material and clearly seemed to really enjoy the job, others that didn’t seem to enjoy that much. And I thought, I think I might enjoy that because my family is teachers.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:03:49]:
My dad was a teacher and a department chair, and my mom was a teacher as well. And I thought, well, maybe I can do this at the college level. And all I knew at that point was, okay. To be a professor, I need to have a PhD. And I started submitting applications with that being the extent of my understanding. And so not surprisingly, I got rejected by every school I applied to, except for one, which was New Jersey Institute of Technology, where I was also doing my bachelor’s. Because one thing I was able to do there that I was not able to do as easily with other schools is I could just pick the brains of my professors. And so I just started to talk to them 1 by 1, voicing my interest in getting a PhD.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:04:34]:
I got very different reactions to that from faculty. Some that were telling me to do anything but that, others that were very enthusiastic, some that were giving me highly detailed advice. But I talked to enough people that those in decision making roles came to learn that I was interested in a PhD. My GPA was really good at a 3.96 GPA as an undergrad. And I was fortunate enough to have a professor buy in quite literally to bringing me on directly from bachelor’s into the PhD program and administrative personnel being on board with that as well. Chris, I’m sure you know, but maybe your listeners don’t. You know, one of the biggest differences between PhD programs and and master’s programs is PhDs are almost always fully funded positions. I’ve now come to learn it’s quite rare for a bachelor student to go directly into PhD with that full funding commitment without ever having done research.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:05:30]:
I didn’t even know what the word research meant. And things like the difference between qualitative and quantitative research, I’ve never even heard those terms. And so I was being admitted into into a PhD program really, just on genuine passion for a very clearly articulated career goal. I wanted to be a professor, whatever that meant, and strength of GPA. So then I start my PhD. And I’ll skip ahead to the end first so everything else makes sense. It took me 7 years to finish my PhD, which is quite a bit longer. I think the national average is between 4 5 years.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:06:00]:
Yeah. So those 2 extra years came really at the start, not at the end. Because those first two years were mostly just me running around with my head on fire, trying to figure out not just how to succeed at a PhD, but learning what a PhD actually is. Like, when I was saying I didn’t even know what the word research meant, I didn’t understand that a PhD student has to formulate their own research agenda and conduct and complete that for a dissertation. I knew these words, dissertation. I knew these words, research, but I didn’t know what they meant. And so just to give an example, when I was admitted into the program, they said, we’re gonna guarantee your funding for 4 years, which I interpreted as, oh, great. A PhD is only gonna take 4 years, because I was operating with that certainty and structure of a bachelor’s program and a master’s program where I just take these classes.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:06:48]:
And then once I finish those, I’m imagining gonna have a PhD, meaning I assumed other people took responsibility for the structuring and ensuring that I was hitting certain milestones at a certain time. And I remember in my 1st year as a PhD student, it was amazing because I knew just enough to learn that I was learning a lot, but I didn’t know yet all of the things I should have been doing in my 1st year into my 2nd year to make sure I finished by year 5. And so the end of year year 1, I remember thinking to myself, I’ve learned more in this 1 year than I have in 4 years as a bachelor student, and I and I still believe that to be true today. I was learning so much because I finally knew exactly why I was there. I mean, Chris, you know, like, PhD students, they still have to take some classes, and those are mostly front loaded in the 1st couple years. And so I was still in that mindset of taking classes. But the difference between me at the PhD level and undergraduate level was I wanna be a professor. Whereas when I was an an undergraduate, it was I’m taking these classes because I’m vaguely interested in computers, and people tell me I’m good with computers, but I still really didn’t know what career I was working towards and how each class fit into that.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:08:05]:
So when I was taking my introductory classes in the PhD program, it was, oh, very clearly, I understand what I’m taking from this and what I’m taking from that. I finally started to see classes as these really valuable knowledge bases. And so I came out of that year. I I really felt like I doubled my intellect between bachelor’s and that one year in the in the PhD program. And then I start my 2nd year. And then as I go into my 3rd year, it starts to dawn on me the obligations that are on me. Not on anybody else, but on me to articulate our research agenda, and I didn’t know where to begin. I could read papers.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:08:42]:
I could summarize papers. I could review papers. But in terms of articulating a research agenda, help somebody help me because I’m so used to professors in classes. You know, they assign to you projects. They give you exams. The student reacts. This is the task. I will complete it.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:09:00]:
But then in the PhD program, it’s, no. You need to articulate that. You need to put together the, quote, unquote, exam. And it took me a while to figure out the biggest difference between PhD and masters and undergraduate is with those first two degrees, the undergraduate and the masters, you are mastering existing knowledge. You are demonstrating, I understand the knowledge has already been created. But when you do a PhD, the sign of a completed PhD is you have created new knowledge. And that’s a completely different skill set that took me probably at least 2 years just to figure out how to do it and then came the execution, which is why it took me 7 years.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:41]:
So as you look back at that, because you did things, like you said, in a way that was probably a little bit longer than others, and it sounds like there was some maybe some lacking mentorship that might have been there that could have helped you along the way. But as you look back and you look at what you learned in those first two years as you were going into that 3rd year and realizing, oh, I’m behind, what would you have done differently in that 1st year in a PhD program as you were transitioning in and through to move you to the 2nd year and get you on that path toward the end goal instead of being 3 years in and still being a little bit lost.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:10:28]:
Yeah. I think there’s things I should’ve done when I was still an undergraduate when preparing to apply to PhD programs, and then I can talk also about things I should’ve done in the 1st year of my PhD. Because looking back, those first two years of my PhD really should have been my master’s years. And instead, they were in in the PhD years. And some of your listeners might go, oh, no. I got the better end of the deal because PhD is fully funded. So I basically got a master’s fully funded. I don’t have a master’s, but that was just you could argue that’s essentially what I was doing.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:11:01]:
But I would say, no. That’s not the smart play. Because as soon as you enter a PhD program officially, you’re on this clock where you have to have certain milestones then at a certain time. And so I was basically being an informal master’s student while also PhD, but on a PhD student clock, which caused a lot of anxiety later on where I am now a year plus behind on certain milestones with my dissertation proposal and, of course, dissertation defense. And so I would not recommend that. What I should have been doing in my senior year as an undergraduate student or maybe even earlier, because I now see this even in my own research lab now, is getting involved with research as an undergraduate student. And because I didn’t realize that was a thing that professors really encouraged. And looking back in in my 6 plus years as a professor now, my absolute best student researchers were undergraduate students, and bar none.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:11:56]:
It’s not even close. And I should have been doing that, not just to start to build up a CV of a publication record, but just to get an understanding of what does it mean to do research, and what are the the expectations? What’s the skills that I have to develop? Because that would have armed me with much better knowledge of how to craft materials for applying to different schools, but also in choosing which schools to apply to. And it would have enabled me to go into a PhD program already understanding the area I wanted to do a PhD. And maybe not the exact dissertation plan was set up, but an understanding of, I’m gonna be an expert in this subfield or this subarea so that immediately I can start mastering the literature of that particular area. Because what I spent the first two years on my PhD was just understanding what part of human computer interaction do I even wanna do research in, and then what does that research even look like?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:53]:
All good points. And, you know, one of the things that I learned when I was going through my own doctorate was that the more that you can use the classes that you are taking to inform the research that you’re going to be doing. And if your program allows it, to allow for you to be able to start to do some of the lit review, some of the writing, some of the chapter writing as you’re going through other courses that may relate to the topic at hand, definitely can save you time. But I say, if your program allows it, because not every program will allow you to do that. So it’s always important to know and to understand what the rules are for the program that you’re in. One of the things that I I think that I would ask you now, as you look back, and you’ve kinda talked about the fact that you would have done research ahead of time. You now are the director of a PhD program in computing, and you are getting applications from individuals that are applying to the program. You get some that are that potentially do have a bachelor’s degree but no master’s degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:02]:
You have others that have master’s degree or master’s degree plus experiences. In your opinion right now, if a student is getting a bachelor’s degree, is it to their benefit to look to a PhD right away if that’s where they see themselves in the future? Or is it better for them to do the route of the masters, getting getting more experience, and then going to the PhD?

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:14:27]:
Yeah. That’s a that’s a complicated question, and I think the answer has evolved over time. Sort of from what I’ve seen, not just in my own role, but from speaking to those in similar roles at other universities, is the standard of quality for an admitted PhD student has gone up dramatically. And with that, also expectations for quality of a of a completed PhD. I I’ve talked to some that are very esteemed senior members of the field, and they’ll tell us what they completed for their dissertation wouldn’t even be a third of what’s expected of a PhD now. So the expectations are continually rising, not just for completing the PhD, but for admission into a program. To be honest, someone that has a bachelor’s and is considering a PhD, I would probably not advise doing that unless the student already has a publication record, meaning some kind of evidence to a PhD program that I can do research successfully. Because something that I tell our prospective applicants is, you know, when you hear a PhD program is is fully funded, they see that as sometimes free money.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:15:45]:
But what it really means is there is an obligation of the student to deliver on that investment. Because that’s what it is. It’s an investment. And so when you hear a program is fully funded like ours, what it often means is faculty are committing finite resources that they’ve worked very hard for through writing external grants and whatnot, And they’re investing those resources into a relatively unknown student with their fingers crossed that that student’s gonna deliver on high quality publications that allows that faculty member to apply for more grants and to get tenure and all these other things. And so a student at the bachelor’s level, that immediately looks like risk. Because compared to a master’s student, there’s just less of a timeline for that student to have performed research to demonstrate I can conduct research at the highest level. And so the advice that I would give to the typical bachelor students let’s say a a bachelor student who knows enough to say, I wanna get a PhD in human computer interaction, for example. But they’re not able to articulate specific research questions that they wanna dedicate yours to studying or they might not even be aware of what the top publication venues are in their field.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:16:59]:
I would recommend pursuing a master’s, but looking into funding options at the master’s level. So, for example, like, here at Flint, and I did this at my previous institution, sometimes it will identify high performing undergraduates. They’ve indicated somewhat of an interest in doing research, but they don’t know much about what that is. And there is often some funding lines, not nearly as extensive as PhDs, but some schools have funding opportunities, whether it’s, RA positions, whether it’s smaller scholarships to at least partially fund a master’s degree for a high performing undergraduate student. Or, for example, if your school like ours offers a BSMS program So you can start taking master’s programs at the bachelor’s level, and then that way you get on the radar of some faculty members. Because from a I tell you from a faculty member’s perspective, one of the biggest challenges we have is picking the right students. And so if we’re able to observe a student in class or maybe they’ve been informally coming to our research meetings and exhibiting interest, and they’ve done some small roles maybe in an unpaid capacity because they just wanna not so much contribute to research, but just to understand what a professor’s working on. Right? Like, I’ve had students that, I’ve read some of your papers, or can you give me some some recommendations of papers I could read? I’m more likely to commit to a student than, let’s say, at the bachelor’s level because I relative to an unknown student with a master’s because I was able to observe them for a much longer period of time, and I’m more confident about their capabilities at the PhD level.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:41]:
Those are great points, and I think definitely things that people can think about, whether it’s for a PhD in computing to a PhD in some other area. What you just heard from Doug is really important, is that if you’re currently in your undergraduate experience, you should be working on undergraduate research at the same time and finding ways to be able to do that research. And if you haven’t done that yet, going into a PhD may be very challenging. And getting into a PhD program may be a similar experience as what Doug experienced in getting those rejection letters, which are not always fun to get. Because I know that I’ve seen some rejection letters in my past, and it’s never fun to get those. But especially if there’s other ways for you to be able to still get to that final goal, that final point where you want to be, but in a roundabout way, that may be the better way to go. So that being said, listen to what you you just heard there, and really think hard about the decision that you’re making. Because it’s not all about funding, it’s also about what’s best for you and being successful in the experience that you’re gonna be going through.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:49]:
Now talking about success, as you look at the experience that you went through, and you talked about some of the things that you learned in that 1st year, and 2nd year, and the 3rd year. But each of us, as we go from one degree to the next, we end up going through transitions. You went through your transitions in going from undergrad into your graduate school program. I went through my own. As you look at the transitions that you went through, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout that PhD experience for yourself?

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:20:23]:
Really good question. I don’t think anyone’s ever asked me that before. But just thinking through, like, when I started a PhD to when I ended, some of the intangibles that really helped me get there, I think there were 2 big ones that come to mind that I didn’t necessarily possess when I was leaving my bachelor’s. One was being comfortable with discomfort. So when I ended my bachelor’s degree, I think like most bachelor student, we became very accustomed to structure, particularly structure that’s imposed by others. Like, I was saying before with, like, you have to go to this classroom at this time. These are the exams. This is homework.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:21:01]:
This is when the homework is due. And we we become so trained to allow someone else to dictate our pace of work, what quality looks like, that when I started in the PhD program, especially in my 1st semester, I’d wake up. I look at my calendar. Oh, I only have one class today, so I only have to work for that 2 hours today. I didn’t understand all the rest of that time in the days for me to figure out how to utilize, because I was still in that mindset of other people will tell me how to use my time, which is not the case. And so that was one of the hardest lessons for me to learn, and it kinda manifested later in my PhD of me working 7 days a week for at least a few years in a row because I I needed to do that catch up. It wasn’t overworking. It was me delaying the work that I should have been doing in those days in my 1st couple years into into later.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:21:53]:
So that was the the first big skill lesson was some people use the term time management for that. I think that term gets misunderstood. I think it’s that self directed nature of I’m not waiting for someone else to tell me what to do. And if no one tells me what to do, it doesn’t mean I have nothing to do. So that was a hard lesson to learn. The other lesson was having no plan b, which sounds really risky. But, Chris, you probably know the the national averages on this better than I do. But the last that I’ve read, the nationally speaking, there’s a 40 to 60% attrition rate in PhD programs.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:22:29]:
And in my own program, in my cohort for the year that I went to the program, we had a 50% attrition rate. And I probably would have been on the other side of it if I had some other potential career option that I would have been okay with. Because in those 7 years, there’s more time than not where I had family members asking me, why are you doing this? You’re working all the time. Is this and you’re getting paid what? Because, Chris, you know, but maybe your listeners don’t. When when we hear that PhD programs are fully funded, you’re not necessarily getting a a funding that’s commensurate to a job you would have gotten in industry. You you’re getting paid a not glamorous amount of money to pay the essentials while you’re doing your PhD. And there is multiple times, family members, close friends going, this is crazy. Why don’t you just go get a normal job that pays you? I’ll be honest.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:23:32]:
My stipend at the time was $20,000 a year. This is in the New Jersey, New York area, and so that doesn’t go very far. And when you do that for 7 years, you start to get the questions more and more each year. Is this worth it? And in my mind, there was no plan b. I had to become a professor. And so in those really, really hard times when I saw students, not necessarily just failing out of the program, but voluntarily leaving, I pushed through because in my head and my heart, I was just convicted to this is what I will do. And there was days where that was the only thing that was getting me into the next day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:10]:
Now I know you work with a lot of grad students now. And as you think back to your own experience, as you think back to the experiences you’ve had at the institutions that you’ve worked with in your career, leading you to where you’re at today here at the University of Michigan, Flint, what are some pieces of advice that you would offer to every graduate student, no matter if they were going into a technological graduate degree, a PhD, a master’s degree? It doesn’t matter. What would you say to them as they were looking at ways to find success sooner?

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:24:43]:
Yeah. I think one of the main things that I tell to prospective applicants, not just at the PhD level, probably more so at the master’s level, is to have a really clear understanding of why you wanna do that graduate degree. So especially at the master’s level, I’ve come to learn that a lot of students finishing their undergraduate degrees that are considering a master’s level, they’re doing it for what I would consider really bad reasons. Some of them look at it like a glorified pause button. It’s the, I don’t know what I wanna do with my life, so let me spend 2 years in a master’s program, and maybe the answer will magically come to my mind, which rarely does. The other is, well, I’ve been too late to applying for jobs. So let me go to a master’s program to just give me more time to apply. That’s a very expensive decision.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:25:33]:
And then another, and this is the one that concerns me the most, is students believing a graduate degree in anything from anywhere on any topic will magically give me a great job that makes me feel satisfied in life. And we see this at the bachelor’s level too where students graduating, and they go, I can’t find a job. And you ask them, what job have you been preparing yourself for? And they can’t answer. You’re gonna see the same problem at at the master’s level as well. And so my main piece of advice is first, have a very clear understanding of why you wanna get a graduate degree. And then 2, all of your decisions should follow from that why. So for example, if you wanna get a a graduate degree because you wanna be a user experience designer for a health care company. I mean, let’s just say it’s a scratch.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:26:28]:
Because I’ve heard this from from students. Well, then when I say all of your decisions should follow from that, it’s, okay, what schools not just necessarily have the best program that teach user experience design, but which ones offer collaborations with health care or which ones have collaborations with nursing departments? And those aren’t always the number one school in the country for information systems or human computer interaction. You’re looking for the best program for you and your particular goals. So those are my two pieces of advice. Just have a very clear understanding of why you wanna do a graduate degree and then have all of your subsequent decisions follow from that why.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:04]:
Well, Doug, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing all of this journey that you have shared and all of the advice that you have shared today, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:27:14]:
Thanks, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:14]:
The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you’re looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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