Graduate school is a unique and deeply transformative journey. As Dr. Christopher Lewis outlines in this week’s Victor’s in Grad School podcast, every student travels their own path toward advanced degrees, facing distinct challenges and triumphs along the way. This episode features Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer, an Associate Professor and Director of the Masters in Software Engineering program at the University of Michigan Flint‘s College of Innovation and Technology, who shares his insightful experiences and suggestions for finding success in graduate school.

Finding Your True Passion

The Decision to Pursue a Master’s Degree

When Dr. Mkaouer completed his bachelor’s degree at the Universite de Tunis, he was at a crossroads. Instead of jumping straight into the professional world, he chose to pursue a master’s degree. As he reflects, finding a career that you genuinely enjoy is crucial. At that point, he didn’t know exactly what he wanted to do, so he decided to continue his education to gather more experience and skills, which would later guide him in making more informed career choices.

Emphasizing Research and Continuous Learning

A recurring theme in Dr. Mkaouer’s journey was his interest in research. As he transitioned from his master’s to his PhD, he found a passion for research, particularly in software engineering. His thirst for knowledge and his desire to solve complex problems led him to further his education in the United States, where he continued his studies at the Missouri University of Science and Technology and later, the University of Michigan Dearborn. For students contemplating this path, Dr. Mkaouer insists on the importance of diving deep into research areas that ignite your curiosity and passion.

Charting a Course in PhD Studies

The Role of Mentorship

One of the significant points Dr. Mkaouer discusses is the importance of a solid mentor-mentee relationship during PhD studies. When his advisor moved to another institution, Dr. Mkaouer chose to follow. He stresses that an academic advisor’s vision should align with your own, serving as a consistent support system throughout the demanding PhD journey.

Navigating Obstacles

PhD studies are ripe with challenges—from rigorous academic requirements to unexpected changes, like a mentor leaving. Dr. Mkaouer advises students to be adaptable and remain focused on their long-term goals. He also emphasizes the significance of building a robust support network of like-minded peers who can provide both technical and emotional support.

Preparing for Professional Success

Beyond Grades: Developing Skills

Dr. Mkaouer emphasizes that the goal of a graduate degree is not simply to get good grades but to develop a unique skill set that separates you from others in a competitive job market. He recalls his struggles and eventual success with mastering algorithms, a crucial skill for his career. His consistent effort and extra work beyond the standard curriculum were what truly set him apart.

Utilizing Resources and Mentorship

Graduate programs offer numerous resources and mentorship opportunities, which students should fully utilize. Dr. Mkaouer mentions that many students are unaware of the extensive support available to them. He advises attending seminars, engaging with faculty, and seeking out additional learning materials to supplement formal coursework.

Dr. Mkaouer’s experiences illustrate that the journey through graduate school is multifaceted—marked by continuous learning, adaptability, and a relentless pursuit of passion. By finding your true interests, leveraging mentorship, and developing unique skills, you can navigate the complexities of graduate education and set yourself up for a successful professional career. If you’re considering this path, remember that each step, no matter how challenging, is a building block toward your dreams.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to the Victor’s in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]:
Welcome back to Victor’s in Grad School. I’m your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week, we are on a journey together. I call it a journey because you are on a journey toward graduate school right now. You could be at the very beginning where you’re just starting to think about what is graduate school and do I really wanna do this and what type of program am I interested in? Or you could be at a point where you’ve already applied and now you’re starting to figure out, did you get accepted? If you got accepted, what programs did you get accepted to and where might you want to attend? Or maybe you’re in a program and you’re watching for that light at the end of the tunnel and you’re starting to plan for your future beyond graduate school, no matter where you are, it is a journey. And there are things that you can do along the way that will help you to find success. And you can find that success sooner.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:12]:
So every week, I love being able to bring you different people, different guests with different experiences that can share their own journey. Not only their journey through their education, but their journey through their profession that they can then reflect back on to provide you with some some tips, some tools that you can add to your own toolbox and help you to be successful in the end. Today, we got another great guest. Doctor Mohamed Mkaouer is with us today. And doctor Makaur is a associate professor at the University of Michigan Flint in the College of Innovation and Technology, and I am really excited to be able to talk to him about his own journey coming to the United States after getting his bachelor’s and master’s from the Universite de Tunis to going to the to the universe the Missouri University of Science and Technology and then to the University of Michigan Dearborn to get his PhD in computer software engineering. So I’m really excited to be able to talk to him and learn more from him today and allow for you to learn from him as well. Mohamed, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:02:24]:
Of course. It’s my pleasure, Christopher. So when I heard about your podcast and I heard that this is an opportunity for me to really help students, of course, me being a professor working with students every day and also being a director of software engineering and artificial intelligence here at Intelligence here at the University of Michigan Flint, I cannot miss an opportunity for me to help students with any means possible, including understanding what they expect, what they can see, maybe hopefully inspire them, hopefully answer some of their questions, things that they may not realize. They’re important, but they are. And me sharing my experience as a student, then perhaps a faculty or a profession, and how and how my experience as a, you know, my grad student studies have shaped my profession right now. I think it’s something that I wanna share with everyone. And hopefully, it will be helping helpful to anyone who’s listening.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:10]:
So one of the things that I love doing first and foremost is turning the clock back in time. I know you did your undergraduate and master’s degree work at the Universite de Tunis. And at some point during that undergraduate degree, you decided to continue on into the master’s. So can you bring me that back initially to that point? What made you decide initially that you wanted to continue on after the bachelor’s in your home country at your university to continue on for the that additional 2 years to get that master’s degree?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:03:40]:
Well, the answer is going to be interesting because it will lead me to my first maybe tip, right? Which is perhaps I’ll start with that is, you really need to find something that you truly enjoy. Okay? That’s, I think, my number one, if not 0, advice that I would give to anyone is to really understand what is your vision, what do you dream about. Because all of us, we have something we dream about, Whether and it’s a dream because you don’t even consciously do it. It’s just a dream that comes to you, and then you start developing that in the back of your mind, and then you decide that you wanna do this. So we all have things we dream about, and one of the things I would truly advise is for you to find that vision, that dream job, that career that you wanna build. Figure that out first, and build then a path towards that career. And maybe to answer your question now, Christopher, the reason why I moved from bachelor’s to master’s is because I did not know back then what exactly I wanted to do. So I was somehow postponing that decision and maybe gathering more experience and more skills and more knowledge that can maybe help me, you know, shape that direction.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:04:43]:
So so back then, I was also a major. I was I had, like, a full GPA, honors student, so I was really doing great in school. So I was able to get a lot of job offers from industry, which I joined industry back then, but I was not fully convinced that this is what I picture myself doing from the rest of my career. So I decided to also do grad school to keep that to buy myself some time and try to see whether this new experience will help me figure out what I wanted to do next. Right? And obviously, that did not also work out because I decided to go for a PhD. Right? And during that time, what also made me decide to do PhD is because I realized that I’m really enjoying doing this. Because as you know, when you move to a grad school, you have you add that component of research, which I found really to be very interesting. So I decided to do maybe to do more of that and buy myself actually more time to know what I wanna do next.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:05:30]:
And that’s what brought me to the US, you know, to to continue my PhD studies and started in Missouri, like you mentioned. And then I moved to University of Michigan Dearborn, which was an extraordinary experience, you know, being in the system, and that’s why I’m back here. So, yeah, during also that time, I realized that I’m really enjoying research, and I realized that this is something I wanna do for the rest of my career because after taking more steps towards it, I realized this is exactly what I want to do next, and I started developing the skill set for it. And even during that time, you would still not necessarily figure out all the different details. For instance, I was wondering whether I should do a research career in academia or industry, which is a typical question that a lot of students also get at their grad school. Am I fit for research? Should I go for academia or industry? And maybe my next advice is to try a little bit of both. It wouldn’t hurt for you to try to test the waters. So you can try a little bit of both and see where you really see yourself fitting.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:06:22]:
So what I did back then is I I started teaching courses at University of Michigan Dearborn while I’m still a student. You know, like, you know, so you can also as a student, you can also apply for greater opportunities. You know, try to see how the academic life looks like. Right? Try to be in the classroom, you know, so you can be a a teaching assistant, etcetera. So I started doing a little bit of that to have to see how that looks like and whether I enjoy doing that. Also, during the summer, I started to go for internships. I did some internships here in Detroit, down in Detroit, to see whether also I see myself feeling better in industry. And after spending some time in both, being a teaching assistant at the University of Michigan Dearborn and also doing some internships throughout the way, I realized that I enjoy really investing on people.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:07:04]:
That was my real passion, and I realized that I’m going to continue for academia because this is what I saw myself being really happy.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:11]:
So I wanna go back to that jump from being in Tunisia to coming to the United States. And as you made that decision to continue your education, as you mentioned, to get the PhD, as many students do, as they’re identifying that next opportunity, they have to do some research. They have to figure out for themselves, what am I looking for? What type of program? What’s the best fit? So you ended up initially going to Missouri University of Science and Technology for a doctorate of philosophy in computer software engineering. Talk to me about bring me back to that point where you had that inkling that you wanted to go further and that research then that you went through to be able to identify that program as the right program. Now I know that that’s not where you ended your degree. But what made you initially choose not only to go to Missouri University of Science and Technology, but also to choose the PhD in computer software engineering versus some other area?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:08:15]:
Well, it that decision first of all, I wanna give it since you you brought that back in that time, I was always looking for a major that that would strengthen my skills in different domains. This is how I thought I should be doing. So if you look at my first bachelor, I was specialized in what we called the e learning back then. It was computer science, but I was specialized in e learning. Then I wanted to try something slightly different or entirely different, so I did master’s with distributed systems. So my thesis was around distributed systems and cloud computing. And then I realized that through my experience and industrial experience back then too, that what I really truly enjoy or triggered my curiosity in research was something with software. And that’s how I get to know software engineering, and that’s how I get to start looking for people who can give me more insights about how their that research is going to, to be looking like.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:09:05]:
And that’s when I met my academic adviser, and that’s how I was able to see that the research in software engineering in particular has a lot of impact into industry. It actually helps developers be more productive. It helps the whole life cycle of software become more efficient, which will save us 1,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 of dollars combating errors and anomalies and vulnerabilities that we are living in right now in our infrastructure. Because obviously, that is actually, one of the biggest expenses we have in our economy is actually bugs, software bugs. It’s still happening as we speak. Over $3,000,000,000 a year. That’s an astronomical number. That’s a big number.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:09:42]:
So I realize that me helping people through that is something I’m interested in. So showing the impact of that research on people’s lives is what made me realize that this is what I want to do for the rest of of my career. And I’m happy to see that to say that I’m doing this in multiple dimensions. 1 is research. You know, when I work in ways to improve the soft the qualities of the software. That’s me helping a lot of companies such as Xerox, Microsoft right now, JetBrains Research, helping them build better frameworks for millions of people. That’s through my research. Also through my teaching here at the University of Michigan Flint, I’m teaching right now as we speak a course called Software Testing and Quality Assurance.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:10:25]:
So I was able to exercise my research into the classroom and help students write better code and learn how to test their own code, which hopefully will reduce and minimize the number of errors once they once they graduate and go to industry.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:38]:
Now I know that sometimes when you go into a graduate program, it’s smooth sailing, not many bumps in the road. Other times, things can happen, and you have to go with the flow. And you have to do some pivoting and some kind of go around the a curve that you might not have expected. And I’m gonna venture, I guess, to say that going from one institution to the next was probably not in your mind when you first went in, but that there was a little bit of a pivot there. And sometimes that happens at a PhD level, that you have a specific individual that you’re working with, a faculty member that you’re working with, and that person leaves, but they’re still your mentor, you’re the person that you’re working with on your research. So we’ve never really talked about this on the show, but can you talk a little bit about that journey for you, going from one institution to a next as a PhD student? Because for some PhD students, this will happen, and it could derail their process if they’re not aware of it.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:11:42]:
That is correct. So this is going to be now specifically to PhD students. Right? So I think a lot of situations where you’ll because a PhD study is typically, you know, a study would just go between 4 to 6 years long, so there is always a chance of you being mentored by a supervisor who might leave the institution. Because of how long that program is, there is a stronger chance or a stronger probability that you will end up having the situation compared to, for example, a master’s student. Right? So for PhD students, yes, there is a chance, there is always a chance that your supervisor or your academic advisor or thesis advisor, depending on how you call it, will actually leave the institute. And now you have the choice somehow to either stay in your institute and find another advisor, which probably means you have to switch your research altogether to something different, or you got the chance to move with your advisor and continue that line of research. So to me, it was the situation, and it was also happening right when I started. So it was in the end of 1st year.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:12:39]:
So I wasn’t really too much committed into my research back then, like in terms of, for example, publications, etcetera, which made the situation easy for me to make a decision whether to stay or to move. Right? But of course, because I was so convinced into the research I’m doing, I was so into it, and I was also in very good terms with my advisor, which I believe this is a key to success. When you are looking for a PhD opportunity, get comfortable with your PhD advisor because that relationship is stronger than just a master advisor for instance, which is a short term relationship. But for a PhD, it’s the apprentice. This is what they call, you know, the apprentice model. So you need to really be in the same page, the same vision of your adviser so that you can actually flourish together. And that’s exactly the reason why I decided to move my adviser. And I told him back then when when he proposed it, do you wanna move me? I said, I will go with the moon with you if you’re moving.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:13:27]:
I don’t care where you go. I’m just gonna be with you as long as we keep this research vision. And that’s because I was able to achieve my first tip, which is knowing exactly what I want. You know? So that’s when now you know how to do it and how you can navigate the different obstacles that you will get throughout the way. Because a PhD journey in particular has a lot of bumps. This is how it is. You know? My father always says, if you’re doing something that tends to be easy, maybe you’re doing the wrong thing. So so PhD was totally worth it, but it’s also it was a difficult journey because of how, you know, elitist it is in in by nature.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:14:01]:
Right? You are competing with people who are really world class researchers, People who are, you know, they develop and devote their life and their career for the greater good. So you are competing with this level of excellent researchers. So to be one of them, it requires a lot of sacrifice, a lot of commitment, and a lot of devotion and love and passion for what you do, plus sacrifice as well, obviously. So that’s the shape of a PhD, which I would totally do again. For me it was enjoyable because I knew exactly what I was doing. And part of it is also to surround yourself with people who share your same vision. That’s very important, very critical for whatever you do, whether you are a master or PhD. You have a goal, you have a vision.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:14:41]:
Make sure you’re surrounded with people that would help you flourish because they can help you. They can be your counselors. They can be your therapists at some point. They can be supporting you technically and emotionally and socially. And also, they will be your future network once you graduate. A lot of the students that share my same vision with me and I skipped relationship with them, now they are my colleagues in different institutes. We collaborate with them, we collaborate together, we write papers together. A lot of others are now in industry, in Amazon, other places.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:15:09]:
So we also have that professional connection together. We share some students, we send I send them some students to go for internship with them. So that’s also your future network because you have a similar vision. So most likely, you’ll stay connected together throughout your whole career.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:22]:
Now you went through your bachelor’s, your master’s, your PhD. You found success. You graduated, you got those degrees, you moved into your professional career and continued on in your professional career. And in each of those transitions from bachelor’s to master’s, from master’s to doctorate, you go through transitions. And at every level, there are different expectations. There are different ways in which you’re being educated, and you have to come to a better understanding of that as a student to be able to understand what is expected of you and the not only in the institutional context, but institutional context, but in the programmatic context of the program that you’re in. So as you think back to your own education and also the transitions that you see in students that you work with on a daily basis, Think back to first let’s first start with focus well, actually, as you think back to your own education and you think back to the transitions that you had personally, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you entered into a program? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entirety of those graduate degrees?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:16:35]:
Excellent question. So my number one advice as potentially a former student and now a director is that each program we are here to support you to succeed. So you need really to know what each program is offering and use all the resources you can get to make that success happen. Because each program, at least here in Flint for instance, we have a lot of support for our students and our students I feel like sometimes they don’t even know these resources, they exist. So make sure to attend all the different seminars we have. Listen to what your advisors say. Listen to the faculty. Ask questions whenever you can.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:17:13]:
And then start planning your success accordingly. Because why? Because you can. Like for instance, I’ll give myself an example. So I realized that for me, for instance, to be successful in the kind of things I’m doing, which is, for instance, you know, developing algorithms, I had to be really good at algorithms. I knew this is something that was critical to me to succeed in what I want to do. And success, at least in my case, was not just to get a good degree or a good grade. It’s actually to be able to solve concrete problems that are so laser focused that not a typical resource can help you do that. So I had to really develop skills across multiple books, and that’s what I did.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:17:51]:
I started reading a lot of books and algorithms, solving a lot of problems in in a lot of algorithmic references in which that a typical student may not need to do necessarily. But for me, I knew this is going to be helping me for the kind of problems I want to solve in the future. So I tried developing my own career or kind of, skills. Right? And, and that was not an easy thing to do, by the way. I’m just saying this, it sounds easy, but it’s not. It took me, for instance, the first book that I was working, I was using as a reference was called, Interactions to Algorithms. It’s a phenomenal book, not easy to read. It’s an MIT book, I think.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:18:24]:
So I started working on that book and I think the first chapter, it took me almost a month to even navigate the first chapter of that book. It was something new to me, so I had to develop that skill set. And but after that, I started realizing that it’s getting easier and easier for me to just do that. So consistency is very important. And then by the end of these 2 semesters, I think I was able to solve the whole book. And when I did that, I felt like I can fly to the moon now. And I was able to develop that kind of skills that I saw helping me become a better developer and also a better thinker and problem solver. So, yes, if you are a master’s student right now listening to this and you are in a submajor, there are references that you know that if you read them carefully, you’ll be able to become a better person in the future.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:19:06]:
So why not doing it and planning it now? You can actually do it. So, yeah, that’s for me at least one way for me to plan for for that. And and, of course, it may not be easy, so please use your faculty, your mentors as resources and seek for advice because they’ll be more than happy to help you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:22]:
All great advice. I really appreciate you sharing that. Now you work with a lot of students as well, and you see them as they enter the program, as they go through the program, and you had your own experiences as a graduate student yourself, and you’ve been giving a lot of piece of advice today. And I guess as we look at finishing up today and thinking about success in general, as you look back to not only your own graduate education, but also as you think about other students, students that you work with or just graduate students in general, what are some tips that you want to offer to others that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:20:01]:
Yes. So I think the difference between and I see this as my personal opinion. The difference between undergrad degree and a grad degree is that undergrad degree, you are really looking for a degree to get to set you up for for a job. But the grad degree is setting you up for what you want to do next with your career. So that should be your mindset, which means that if you are taking classes at the graduate level, you aren’t taking classes to get to get a to get an A on A plus You’re getting classes to develop a skill set that would make you unique in the market and also unique in a way to develop your own path in the market. And this market is extremely competitive. That’s that’s the truth of it. Right? And maybe you being a grader student because you you you already realize that.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:20:40]:
That’s why you are do taking a message because you don’t wanna tackle that level. So that’s why grades should not be your goal. It should be a consequence of your excellence towards building that path. That’s my number one advice is that so don’t stick to what the course is telling you to do. That should be your minimum effort, not the maximum effort. That’s my number one also advice to students who are taking classes right now. Whatever expectations or course workload that the faculty is giving you, that should be your minimum bar, because that’s for everyone. But what makes you different from them is the extra step that you will take to be better than everyone else if you really want to be excellent.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:21:19]:
And that’s the excellence that I want to see my students doing. And a lot of students actually have gone through that and were able to get into their dream job. I can bring a lot of examples, but students who really came to me, I have I will just give one example. My PhD student. My first PhD student, I was interviewing him for PhD, and I told him, what do I do in your career? He said, I want to be a senior developer at Microsoft. I said, that’s it. This is my goal. I will just do it.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:21:42]:
And then I’m like, alright. Let’s let’s see that. And to me, you know, back then, for someone who is barely starting their masters to have that kind of high expectations, I’m like, okay. I appreciate that kind of thing, and I really hope they can do that. And I’ve seen them developing the right skill set for that. I’ve seen them spending a lot of time, compared to the other students, training and developing because the kind of position they wanna go to is requires a lot of programming. So they were doing extra programming. They were emailing me constantly.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:22:08]:
Professor, give me more. And I’m like, have you done your homework already? He said, yeah, of course. And you just need more. So it was more demanded than others, and I was obviously helping that student, giving them more assignments that I think can help them. And indeed, they developed a kind of skill set that helped them get into that dream job, and now they are actually, successfully developed by Microsoft. And I, by the way, I brought them here on campus in Flint. They gave a lecture. They gave advice to prospective students.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:22:33]:
So if you are listening to me right now and you have that kind of dream job, please contact me. I can hook you up, and they can talk to you about how you can do that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:41]:
Well, Mohamed, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing all this advice today, for sharing some of your own experiences, but also your experiences as a faculty member to help other students as they’re thinking about their own graduate school journey. And I wish you all the best.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:22:55]:
Thank you so much, Christopher. And I and I hope that I was able to help. And please, I’m sure they can find my email online. So So my name is, again, Mohamed Wianne Macower. My email is [email protected]. You can also Google me as director of AI and software engineering. If you have any questions about these programs, I’ll be more than happy to help you. If you have any questions about anything about graduate studies, I’ll be more than happy to share with you my advice, and let’s keep in touch.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:23:21]:
Thank you so much.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:23:22]:
Ways that you might be able to fill the gaps in on your resume.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:25]:
Great tips. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate you sharing all of this today, Ariana. And I am really looking forward to hearing what your next steps are and seeing where you go from here. But I truly appreciate your time and appreciate you sharing all of this, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:23:42]:
Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was great, and I hope that someone finds some good tips and some help from this.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:50]:
The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you’re looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at [email protected].

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