Are you a graduate student feeling the constant pressure to be flawless? Have you found yourself chasing impossible standards, believing that only perfect grades or perfect work will help you succeed? If this sounds familiar, you’re not alone—and the new episode of “Victors in Grad School” is here to reassure and empower you.

In a powerful conversation between Dr. Juanita Tookes and Dr. Christopher Lewis, Dr. Tookes shares a presentation about the Perfection Myth and dives deep into the experiences that graduate students face around perfectionism. The discussion is honest, validating, and filled with practical advice and heartfelt encouragement.

Dr. Juanita Tookes shares her personal experience as a “recovering perfectionist,” normalizing the struggle and reminding listeners that striving for perfection is a common—but ultimately unrealistic—desire. She explains that perfection is a constantly shifting, subjective concept defined by societal standards, cultural expectations, and comparison (especially in the era of social media). The elusive chase for perfection can leave students feeling anxious, burnt out, and always “less than,” which is neither healthy nor sustainable.

The podcast also digs into the impact of perfectionism on the brain, highlighting how a constant drive for flawlessness keeps students in a heightened state of fear and anxiety. This mindset, as Dr. Juanita Tookes explains, can deprive you of celebrating your achievements, push you toward burnout, and even negatively impact your mental and physical well-being.

Listeners will appreciate the practical discussion of perfectionist behaviors—like overworking, fearing mistakes, avoiding help, and linking self-worth to performance. Dr. Christopher Lewis and Dr. Juanita Tookes reinforce that these behaviors are understandable in high-pressure environments like graduate school, especially when finances and career prospects are at stake, but they urge listeners to challenge these patterns for their own health and happiness.

As the episode wraps up, you’ll find wisdom in reframing mistakes as essential for growth, embracing imperfection as courageous, and celebrating persistence over unattainable perfection. There are even valuable resources recommended, including Brene Brown’s “The Gifts of Imperfection.”

If you want to feel seen, inspired, and equipped to tackle grad school without the chains of perfectionism, this episode is a must-listen. Tune in and start your journey toward a more balanced, fulfilling academic life!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:03]:
We have conversations with students, alumni, and.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]:
Experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Hello, everyone.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:13]:
Welcome. Really excited that you’re here today, and I really appreciate you spending some time with us as we continue our student development series and partnership with our CAPS office on campus. And every term, I love being able to identify new topics that we can talk with you on to help you in the journey that you’re on. And tonight I’m really excited because Dr. Juanita Tookes is back with us. And this topic, the topic that we’re talking about tonight, is a really important one because a lot of times when I talk to graduate students, I hear many times that there are concerns and there’s this feeling that you have to be perfect, that you have to get that a. That you always have to be at your best. And sometimes you can’t always be at your best.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:59]:
Sometimes you have to be willing to be okay where you’re at. And, you know, the myth of being able to be perfect all the time is definitely that it’s just a Myth. So today, Dr. Tooks is going to talk about the perfection myth and how as graduate students, you can reframe and rethink about things in a little bit different way. And so I’m really excited to have her here and to have her talk with us tonight. To Tactor Tooks, I’ll turn it over to you.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:01:27]:
Hello, everyone. I am so happy to be here again. As Dr. Lewis mentioned, this is a very valued partnership between the CAPS office and graduate studies. I love working with grad students, and a big part of my heart for grad students is because I remember being a grad student. I remember how hard it was. I am also recovering perfectionist. I don’t know how many years in that I met that I’m at, but I will be the first to say that I suffer very badly with perfection.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:01:57]:
And we’re going to get into kind of what that looks like, how it can show up in your graduate student experience. But what I hope that you can get from this ultimately is feelings of validation. If you have gone through any of the things that we’ve talked about, I assure you you are not the only one. That’s why I was the first to raise my hand. And I encourage you to engage in this conversation. I don’t want to call it like a presentation, but feel free to use the zoom reactions. If there’s anything that you relate to or anything that that really resonates with you, just use Some of the reactions, so that I know that, you know, what I’m saying is really kind of connect. You know, it’s connecting with you.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:02:40]:
This is going to be an honest, transparent space. You know, it’s seven o’ clock in the evening, so we’re kind of loosening up. You know what I mean? So this is going to be a pretty easygoing conversation. It’s going to be informative, it’s going to be validating, it’s going to be supportive. And like I said, I hope you walk away feeling seen, but also feeling empowered. And I hope I can inspire you all to think a little bit differently about how you’re navigating your graduate student experience so that you can also start improving the state of your mental health so that you can actually enjoy this journey. So let’s get into the perfection myth. Okay, so the plan for the conversation today is to talk about perfection as a definition, to also talk about perfection as a concept.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:03:23]:
We’re also gonna talk about perfection as far as how does this look in your brain? So we’re gonna talk a little bit about some brain stuff, and then we’re also gonna talk about how does that follow up in behavior. And then we’re gonna talk about what does it mean when we’re talking about being perfect as a graduate student? What does that even mean? Then we’re gonna go through some myths and facts, and then we’re just gonna wrap up. And in that part, I’ll just leave some final thoughts and hopefully have time, you know, just based off of the information that we’re going to go over today. But it’ll be more, you know, conversational. If there’s anything that you would like to express or anything that you would like to ask, let’s talk about it. I’m also going to provide you with some resources that I hope will help you if perfection is an obstacle for you. And then we’ll conclude our talk for the day so that you can enjoy the rest of your night. So let’s talk about perfect as a definition.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:04:17]:
So it was really interesting just looking up the meanings of perfect. And it’s not because I didn’t know it offhand, but I really like looking at official definitions for words. So when I looked across several sources, the word perfect means flawless, satisfying all requirements, accurate, precise, or exact, free from faults, defects, or blemishes, being the best possible. So I just want that to sit and sink in just for a second. I want your eyes to read over these words. Flawless, satisfying all requirements, being the best Possible, free from faults, defects, blemishes. Another definition was also complete. So I want these words to just sit and sink in as we continue on throughout this conversation.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:05:18]:
So now let’s talk about the concept, the perfect as a concept. So perfect as a concept is an idealized standard. Okay, Idealized standard. It’s also subjective, meaning that it can be interpreted in many different ways across many different contexts, depending on who you might be talking to. So. So depending on you might have somebody’s opinion or maybe a cultural standard, an industry standard. Perfection does not have an objective type of perspective. It’s more subjective based off of who you’re talking to and what’s going on.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:06:05]:
It’s highly influenced by society. That’s why it is always changing. So let’s. Let’s take beauty standards, for example. What is considered beautiful now may not have been beautiful five or 10 or 20 years ago, right? So, for example, I know that, like tattoos on models, for example, in the fashion industry, I want to say maybe 10 years ago, that was no. That was a no. No. You don’t show tattoos because tattoos were not considered beautiful, which is fashion models often covered them if they were walking one way or doing print work.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:06:47]:
But now tattoos are in, like tattoos are in. So everyone now they can be visible now they’re acceptable, seen as a beautiful extension and artistic expression of someone’s personality. But in the next two to three, four, five years, it could be something completely different. So there is never a stopping point for how people view beauty and beauty standards. Perfection is the same way society determines what is perfect. What does perfect mean? Who is perfect. And it can be harmful. Perfection can be harmful.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:07:25]:
I was reading across some sources, and the sources were saying that perfection can be helpful or it can be harmful. And when it said it could be helpful, it said it could be helpful if it was used as a guide. If you use it as a guide to help you as far as, like, inspiring you, like working to such a high standard that it’s inspiring you to do your best at the highest level possible without getting too high. It was kind of. I get what they were trying to say. If you aim for perfection, then you’re going to put forth your best effort as far as being inspired to do your best. My concern about that, though, is everyone doesn’t know where to draw the line. You know, when do I know that my good is good enough without obsessing about everything being right, you know, or complete or perfect? And that’s why I don’t necessarily agree that perfection can be Helpful, because most folks do not know where to draw the line, and they end up actually crossing that line into things, into a way of thinking that is unhealthy.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:08:42]:
So I. My opinion goes with, it’s harmful because it’s often viewed as a requirement by most folks when we talk about what shapes perfection. And I’m going back to the point about it being influenced by society. It’s also shaped by expectations. It’s shaped by values. It can be shaped by routines. Culture comparison is a big thing that shapes perfection comparison. And that is a huge trap that everyone has fallen into, whether they’ve admitted it or not.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:09:17]:
Especially in this age of social media where we. Whether we want to or not, we see how people are succeeding in life, whether it be their job or their grades or maybe the way that they’re living their life. You know, they’re going on vacations three times a year, and you’re still trying to save up to get somewhere. You haven’t been anywhere in like, maybe five years. I know in working with grad students in particular, I know students have told me sometimes that they are busting their brain trying to study for their exams and trying to catch up on readings and things like that. And they’ll go on Instagram and see one of their peers who seems to be living the time of their life. They are outside taking trips, you know, enjoying social activities with friends and family. And then the other student is at home, like, how can I do that? Like, they just.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:10:08]:
It’s perfect for them. They get great grades. They are able to have a life. I’m over here hanging on by a thread. What am I not doing? I need to work harder because I need to have that kind of a life. So it’s very easy to think that you. That people achieve this standard of perfection, and it makes other people feel very discouraged in themselves that they are not at that level, which makes them push themselves harder, to very harmful extents, to achieve something that is not achievable. And we’re going to get to that when we talk about myths and facts.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:10:47]:
But think about somebody pressing, pressing and pushing themselves to a limit that is not possible. And every day that they get up, they are pushing themselves to this unrealistic limit. Think about what that does with your mind. Think about what that does to your soul. Think about what that does to your physical body when you are pushing yourself to unrealistic limits every single day. So now let’s talk a little bit about what goes on in the brain when you are a person who is endorsing perfection. And I also hope that with this conversation we can raise awareness about perfection. So maybe if you are someone who did not realize that your behaviors line up with being a perfectionist or acting in alignment with perfection, this can make you aware.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:11:41]:
Not to make you ashamed, it’s to make you aware so that you can modify your behavior to something that’s more constructive and healthy. So perfectionism often keeps the brain in a heightened state of fear, which can result in anxiety and overthinking. This part of the brain that we’re talking about is the amygdala. The amygdala is activated when you are in a constant state of fear. Because in this area of the brain, this is where you process emotions. A lot of emotional processing goes on in the amygdala, especially fear and anxiety. So this is where fight or flight is activated right there. You know, in the amygdala, rewards are for outcomes and not effort.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:12:27]:
So this is the way cognitively that you are thinking about what you are doing, trying to reach a standard of perfection, right? So you are not going to reward yourself unless you get that perfect outcome, unless you get that 100%, unless you get that 4.0, unless you don’t receive any negative feedback back for the whole semester. That is when you will reward yourself. But when you are holding yourself to that standard and you are depriving yourself of rewards because rewards are actually a very healthy thing to do, self rewarding is very, very healthy. Self rewarding and self celebrating. Because what it does is it acts as fuel for your motivation because you’re pumping yourself up and cheering yourself on. When you do reward yourself for things that you do, things that you do achieve the wins that you do recognize with your pursuit as a grad student. But when you deprive yourself for when you deprive yourself of rewards, because remember, you are trying to achieve something that is not achievable. So what does that mean? If you are waiting for the outcome of perfection and perfection is not achievable, and you’re depriving yourself of a reward until you reach this unachievable standard, guess what that means? That means that you’re not going to get a reward, then you know that’s what that means.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:13:50]:
And so when you do not get a reward and you’re trying to withhold this good thing from yourself, what ends up happening is you decrease dopamine. So now you know we’re talking about hormones in the brain, right? So dopamine is like the. It’s like the feel good hormone. It’s called, like, the happy hormone. So when you reward yourself with something, you increase levels of dopamine in the brain. But when you deprive, deprive yourself of good things, that means you decrease the amount of dopamine that’s being released in the brain. And I want to add, too, in this way of thinking, achievement, right, because you’re. You’re holding out rewards until you get the achievement or the outcome, the.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:14:33]:
The perfect outcome that. That you want. When you do make an achievement with this line of thinking, it is often bringing you relief, not satisfaction. You’re just relieved. Like, whoa, okay, you know, I got that 100% on that exam onto the next thing. It’s not bringing you satisfaction. You’re not thinking about how satisfied you are with how you studied and how hard you worked. It’s just you worried yourself to the extent that you thought that you were going to fail, and you are like, whew, I did not fail.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:15:09]:
All right? I’m relieved because I really thought I was going to get kicked out of this class and dismissed from the program, but I got 100%, and now it’s on to the next thing. So you’re not even stopping to celebrate the fact that you got 100%, and instead of being satisfied because of your diligent efforts, you are just. You’re just plowing into the next thing. You’re not even stopping to recharge. So I hope that you can see how unhealthy this is. Perfection. Perfection is like, I. I want you to think of like.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:15:39]:
Like a horse driver. You know, I. I know we’ve all seen it where it’s or not a horse driver. I’m sorry, it could be a horse driver, but almost like a. A husky team, right? Where it’s like, go, go. You have the person on the little sled, and it’s like, go. Mush. Mush.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:15:54]:
That’s kind of how perfection operates in your brain. Mush. Keep going. We don’t have time to stop. We don’t have time to reward. We don’t have time to celebrate. We don’t have time for this. You need to go into the next thing, and you better achie like you did the last time.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:09]:
Think about how harsh that sounds, because that’s a part of perfectionism, too. Very, very harsh treatment of yourself. Very, very harsh talk of yourself. There’s no encouraging. There’s no cheering. There’s no embracing. It’s just mush. Continue.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:27]:
Go. We can’t stop right now. Stopping is for the week. I really want you to hear how hard it is to operate under those types of mental conditions. And this is all going on in the brain. Perfectionism causes stress. It causes stress and burnout because stress leads to burnout. It’s a part of the burnout experience when we’re thinking about this.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:56]:
When you think about stress, when somebody is stressed, that means that their brain and their body are not safe to rest. It’s not safe. I got to be on edge. I got to be ready. I have to be on defense like I have to, you know, I’m on edge because I have to. Your body is in a state, your body and mind are in a state of alert. So it’s right in connection with that fight or flight with that part that’s going on in the amygdala, that part of the brain. So you’re not able to ease up.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:17:24]:
You’re very tense, you’re very worried, you’re very alert, you’re on edge and your body and your brain has to rest. Grad studies are very, It’s a very intense level of education if you do not balance intense focus and concentration. You’re looking at computer screens all day. You’re reading text with extra small font, journal articles and books and chapters and like, things like that. If you do not give your, your brain and your body a chance to rest, you’re going to burn them both. You’re going to burn them out. You’re going to burn them out. So I really want you to think about how stressful it is when you are putting your brain and your body under such hard conditions of working.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:18:09]:
And when we talk about stress, we’re talking about cortisol, increased levels of cortisol and adrenaline, because those are stress hormones. So again, we’re still talking about brain functioning here. And the reason why I wanted to make sure that I talked about the brain because I think it’s very, very important to have a physiological perspective of how these constructs as perfection really does have an impact not only on the psychological, but the physiological. It’s all in alignment. How you think and how your brain conceptualizes it could really cause an imbalance in chemical hormones in the brain which affect your mood, which affect your mental health. It can affect your, your physical health. So it’s really important to understand what, what perfection looks like on the inside of our brains. Also, perfection reduces cognitive flexibility, right? It’s not flexible.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:19:06]:
That’s why you don’t, that’s why you feel like you can’t make any Mistakes. Everything has to be perfect. You can’t get any questions wrong on the exam. It doesn’t matter that you got a 99%. You missed that one question. And now the test was 75 questions multiple choice. You missed one question. You still got an A.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:19:31]:
But instead of celebrating yourself and appreciating all of the hard work that you put in, you are focused on that one question you missed. And I have heard students say to themselves, well, that was stupid. I was so stupid for that. Like, I should have known. Like, that question was so easy and I got it wrong. Not thinking that you got 74 other questions correct and you still passed, like, with an A. But when you have cognitive, when you don’t have cognitive flexibility, it means that you have a rigid way of thinking. So you have A.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:20:02]:
And this aligns with a fixed mindset. You cannot make a mistake. A mistake is weakness. You might as well just start all the way over. It doesn’t matter that you got 74 of the questions correct. You need to study triple time on the final so that you can get 100%. So now let’s talk about behavior. Right.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:20:24]:
So we talked about cognitively, when you’re thinking about perfection and this way of thinking, how is it impacting the hormones in your brain? Right. One thing about behavior is behavior follows thoughts. So whatever you’re thinking, that is going to show up in how you act. Right? And I had to decrease the size of the font on this slide because the list is ongoing as far as behaviors that align with perfection. So perfection doesn’t just show up as a mindset as we talked about on the previous slide, but it shows up as patterns of behavior as well. And one thing that I think is really important is these behavior behaviors are often subtle and they are socially rewarded. So let’s just stop and park right there just for a second. Some behaviors of perfection are often rewarded, so that’s why they are very hard to recognize.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:21:19]:
So let’s just take a workaholic, for example. I am also a recovering workaholic along with being a recovering perfectionist. And I think I would, you know, I had some flare ups because as a workaholic, the reason why I was a workaholic is because nothing was good enough. And I had to make sure that everything was perfect because nobody could know that I’m making mistakes. And I had to check this email 15 times because, you know, please don’t find a typo. Like, do not find a typo. You know, that’s just going to disregard all of my Intelligence. If there’s one typo in this email.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:21:56]:
So this is of course not the whole entire list. This list can go on for 10 more slides, but I just wanted to list some examples here. So spending excessive time on tasks to make them just right, difficulty stopping or submitting work. And I really, as I’m going through these examples and as you are reading them for yourselves on this screen, please take a minute to reflect on your own behavior. If you are doing these things again, it’s to make you aware, not ashamed. Because the more aware you are, that puts you in a really good position to make modifications to your behavior in ways that help you experience your life in better quality ways. So avoiding new or unfamiliar opportunities. Harsh self criticism.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:22:47]:
Harsh self criticism. After minor mistakes, like I just said with my example of the exam, sensitivity to feedback or criticism. I think this is a very important one because remember when I said earlier in the conversation about I am, you know, striving towards the goal of not receiving any kind of critique all semester? Well, you’re going to get critiqued. Like critique is inevitable, you know, and critique is not a negative thing. But a lot of times, especially those who are perfectionists and who operate in perfection, critique is a bad word. It is not a bad word. You can receive positive critique, you can receive critique about growth, but it’s all in how you perceive critique. If you think it’s bad, then you are going to approach it in fear.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:23:41]:
Remember that fight or flight. You feel threatened when you hear that the professor wants to talk to you after class. Or maybe there is a note that your instructor wrote on one of your assignments. You don’t even want to read it because it’s kind of like, why are you saying anything to me about this perfect product that I just gave you? If you want to meet with me, that means that I did something wrong and now I’m afraid. And what I might try to do is avoid reading the critique, avoid meeting with the professor. I might make some excuses as to why I don’t return the email because I am afraid that you are going to tell me that all of my hard work is garbage and I wouldn’t be able to handle that. So I’m just. I’m not going to listen to any critique at all.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:24:29]:
Again, these are not helpful ways of thinking because critique, if you allow it to, it will help you to grow. If you realize that it does not define who you are as a person and it’s meant to mold and shape and make you better, then you can approach receiving feedback differently. All or nothing thinking. Either it’s perfect or it’s trash. There is no in between. There is no in between at all. If it is not 100% on this test, I’m a failure. I’m stupid.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:25:03]:
Doesn’t matter that I got an 85. Doesn’t matter if I didn’t get the 100, I might as well have just gotten a 0. Hiding struggles to maintain a competent image. So being very worried about how you are perceived by others if they know that you’re struggling. You know, I know a lot of students are worried about what their professors and what their instructors think about them. I had a student who had to repeat a class, and the reason why the student was struggling the second time around is because the student was very afraid that the instructor perceived them as incompetent because they had to take the class again instead of working with the professor to make sure that they had the skills and they had the extra help that they needed to pass the class the second time around, they avoided the instructor because they really thought the instructor just had a negative perception of that. That was really sad to hear. I’m really happy that I was able to work with that student to help them understand the benefits of being transparent with instructors so that can, you know, just demolish those distortions in your head that are telling you something that is completely not true.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:26:24]:
Not asking for help. And a lot of times shame is associated with this, and it goes right to the point before it. Hiding struggles to maintain a competent image. I don’t want to ask for help. If I ask for. Let’s just, for example, I can’t ask for help as an assistant director. I’m the assistant director. I’m the ad.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:26:43]:
I can’t ask for any help. What is my supervisor going to think if I ask her? If I ask her for help on this project, I’m supposed to know everything. I shouldn’t have a question for her. If I have a question for her, she’s going to think that I can’t do this job. So I’m going to continue to struggle with something that I don’t understand versus asking a question from somebody who knows and can give me understanding because I am too afraid that they’re going to think that I am not going to be able to perform well. So all of the falsified things that we tell ourselves because we are afraid. We’re afraid about what other people will think. We’re afraid about what’s going to happen if we go out and do something new or different.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:27:26]:
We’re afraid about falling short. We’re afraid. Fear is a very, very intense and paralyzing emotion. And that’s why it’s so important to have conversations like this, so that you don’t feel as afraid as afraid. And knowing that there’s help out there for you if you are dealing with a 10 sphere like this, struggling to delegate and share tasks, because a lot of times we’re afraid to let others know that we might need some help. But with perfection, it’s also about control. Nobody can do it like me, so I’m gonna just do it myself. I remember working with someone who was working on a huge project, and they needed help with the project, but instead of asking for help, they worked over about four hours to complete it, when they could have completed it in about maybe an hour, maybe 90 minutes at the most, if they would have asked for help from their team.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:28:25]:
And so we had to kind of explore that together about why didn’t you ask your team for help if they were all present and they said that they would help you? And the response was, well, I have a particular way that I like to do things, and so I know how I like it. So I just decided to do it myself. But this was at the cost of the person working over four hours, not getting paid overtime, working through their break period. And this is not physically or psychologically healthy. Right? Difficulty accepting praise or success, and then comparison. So if we think about the themes with these examples, we see overworking, we see control, we see rigidity, and we see emotional suppression. All of this is part of the experience and the endorsing operating under perfection. So let’s talk about the perfect student when it comes to the grad student experience.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:29:32]:
One thing that I would like to ask, and if you feel free to put it in the chat as we go through this particular slide, but why do you think grad students in particular feel the need to be perfect? Just type it in the chat. There’s no wrong answers for this, but I would really like to know what you think as to why grad students would feel like they need to achieve a standard of perfection. I know that, and I explain to students this all the time. Graduates school is a different level of education. The ante is definitely upped when it comes to grad school and the expectations and the evaluations, they’re different, you know, than undergrad. And so it can add some pressure to what students, you know, think about themselves coming into a grad program. We have some answers, some things in the chat. So let’s take a pause for the cause and see what you all have to say.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:30:36]:
So, Michelle, you said money spent for the program and loans because it is a higher level of education. So we feel as if we need to show we are highly competent, Very, very insightful. And I appreciate those responses. Michelle, I want to touch on what you said. Money spent for the program and loans. I have worked with grad students who have been dismissed from their program because they may have failed a course or weren’t doing academically well. And one of the this experience is heartbreaking for staff and faculty because that’s not what we want for any student. But it happens.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:31:24]:
But students are really afraid in situations like this because they fear like, I went through all of this. I still owe money on these loans and I don’t even have a degree to show for it because I got dismissed from the program. I’m a failure. I have all of this money and I have nothing to show for it. So I’m glad that you touched on that, Michelle, because sometimes the money is very pressuring. Spending all this money going to college, going to law school, going to medical school, spending all of this money trying to get this education. And what if I don’t do well? Like in this case, I was talking about students who actually were dismissed from programs. But what about students who are doing okay, you know, they’re actually doing good? Sometimes that loan, that financial pressure, Right.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:32:12]:
And just knowing that you have all of this debt, it could make you feel like. Or all of this money that you’re either investing or in money that you have to pay back, it can make you feel pressure about, well, what if I don’t make it? What if I don’t succeed and then I don’t get a job and then I’m stuck with all of this debt? What am I going to do? So now anxiety is already making you think that you’ve been dismissed from a program when you’re actually doing quite well. So I’m glad you touched on that. Let’s read a little bit more. So, Dr. Lewis, thank you for contributing criticism of your work. Doesn’t feel like this draft needs revision. It feels like maybe I don’t belong here.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:32:50]:
And this breeds perfectionism. Yep. Grad programs select people who are already top of their class, highly motivated, used to being the smart one. So suddenly everyone is talented and the old identity, old identity advantage disappears when your peer group shifts. You can start thinking everyone else is doing better than me. I have to prove I deserve to be here. That pressure can morph into perfectionism. I agree 100%.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:33:18]:
When I used to work with medical students, in particular, I used to work for Michigan State’s University’s College of Osteopathic Medicine. So I had students who were coming from undergrad going into doctoral programs, and in undergrad, they were at the top of their class, right? They were at the top of their class, but then they took that first anatomy class in their first semester of med school. They may have been at the top of their anatomy and physiology. I forgot the coursework. It’s been so long. I used to know this like the back of my head, but it’s like, you took anatomy courses in undergrad and you were at the top, but then you take your first anatomy class at the doctoral level in med school, and you’re not doing so hot. You’re used to being the smart one, the one that’s at the top of their class, and now you’re like, what the heck happened? Like, what happened? I just graduated a few months ago. What happened to my brain just over the last few months? And what I had to tell students a lot of the time is, this is medical school.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:34:21]:
This is not undergrad. We are not in Kansas anymore, okay? This is a whole new level of learning and education. You got a lot of stuff coming at you. The teaching structure is different, the content is different. So you can’t use the same strategies of study that you may have used in undergraduate, because you’re going to have to develop a whole new infrastructure of studying and working as a. As a. As a doctoral student, as a med student. So I try to very much encourage students to think it’s not you.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:34:55]:
It’s not anything that changed with your brain. It’s the fact that your level of education and the domain of learning that you’re in has changed. And like Dr. Lewis pointed out, everybody was at the. Everybody’s at the top of their class. This is med school, so they’re taking the top of the top. That’s why everyone doesn’t get in. It’s very competitive, and we’re going to.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:35:13]:
Oh, and which goes into my next. Goes into my next point. Right? Competitiveness. Grad programs are more competitive than undergrad education because they only have so many slots to fill with students. So the competitiveness can also make students feel like they have to be perfect. Imposter syndrome is interwoven all up and through this presentation. Dr. Lewis and I, we done a lot of presentations on imposter syndrome, so that is also mixed in here and also failure conversations it’s taboo.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:35:48]:
We don’t talk about failure in college. One of the things that I really loved doing when I was working with medical students was talking to faculty who were willing to be transparent about their failures as medical students in their education, in residency, when it was time to take their board exams. And surprise, surprise, a lot of faculty were not willing, they did not want to be transparent about those struggles with students because they felt like students perceived me as the one who was supposed to know everything. If I let them know that I failed my license exam, I am not going to be a credible resource. They’re not going to look at me as credible. But I’m like, no, actually it probably would help you connect a lot of bit more with students if they know that you did experience a failure. And look at you now, you still became a doctor, you’re still very successful, you still know a boatload of stuff that they don’t know. But it was the faculty’s perception of themselves that still made them feel, which at least that’s what I picked up.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:36:51]:
There were still elements of shame about those past failures, which is why they were not willing to be transparent. And if I add, it doesn’t mean that you have to share all your business about every failure that you ever done. Transparency is not a man mandatory thing that you have to do, but it’s one of those things. Whereas if you use it in the right way, it could be a powerful change agent as far as how students think of themselves and how they look at authority figures. Because a lot of times they might look at an authority figure like I wish I could be like Dr. So and so or Mr. And Ms. So and so.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:37:24]:
They’re so smart. I know, like they just whiz through school and I’m up here struggling to know that your professor also had shortcomings. If kind of changes the perspective of they can do no wrong. Like putting them up on these high pedestals. It brings them down to a human level where it’s like, well, if they can experience a failure and they can still make it, I can make it too. So it’s more so inspirational. It’s definitely not something that could put someone in a negative light if you perceive it that way. Sometimes a dangerous truth.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:38:00]:
In many programs, the most praised students are the ones who work constantly. Say yes to everything, never set boundaries, appear always capable. If the culture implicitly rewards intensity, students learn, my worth equals my output. Perfectionism becomes a survival strategy to stay respected. Agree 100% Dr. Lewis. I remember as a grad student in my PhD program, I would always tell my professors, like, every time I would see them, if you need anything, just let me know. If you need anything, just let me know.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:38:33]:
One of my professors stopped me and said, juanita, I know what you’re doing. I know all that you’re doing. There’s nothing that you would be able to do for me. Not because you’re not capable, but you don’t have the time. You don’t have the bandwidth. You’re teaching classes this semester. You’re in internship. You’re still taking courses at night, working in the counseling center part time.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:38:57]:
During the day, you’re doing clinical supervision, like working on some research. You don’t have it to do anything for me. And it really made me look at myself. Like, why am I telling people that I am still available to do something if I’m not available? But I thought that if faculty knew that I was always available, it would make me look better as a student that they know that I’m doing a thousand things, and I can still do a thousand more things. So I was so appreciative of that professor who said, juanita, you can’t. And that is okay. You know? And when you think about what grad students think about, they think about, like, letters of recommendation, if they’re going to go on with their education. They think about maybe possibly being on somebody’s research team.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:39:44]:
It’s kind of like if I keep making myself available, then they’ll remember that. And then when it’s time, you know, to get on their research team or maybe, you know, if I ask them for a letter of recommendation, they’ll write it. Not even thinking about the fact that maybe they would just do it anyway simply because you just asked, not because you overworked yourself. Very good conversation in the chat. Thank you so much for everyone contributing. All right, we’re almost done. Let’s get into some myths now. So you’re not the only one who’s thought this.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:40:11]:
Okay. I think I’ve thought everything on this list. So perfection is achievable. Some of these we’ve already answered, right? We already said that perfection is not achievable because it’s constantly changing. So there’s. There’s not a final endpoint, a destination, a particular bar where it’s like, that’s the end. Because it’s constantly changing due to various things in the world. Being perfect is the key to high achievement.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:40:39]:
Mistakes are signs of incompetence. That’s why you should never make one as a Grad student, you should never make one. If everything is perfect, no one can criticize you. What’s to criticize? It’s all done perfectly. There’s no error, there’s no mistake. So there’s nothing to say, right? Perfection improves confidence. Let’s take some time. Let’s let it sit, let’s let it sink.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:41:07]:
Let’s think before we go to these facts. Especially that, those last two. If everything is perfect, no one can criticize you. And perfection improves confidence. Okay, now let’s talk about some facts. Because the way that you fight fear. Right, Because I want you to think about perfectionism. Perfectionism is connected to anxiety and anxiety is based in fear.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:41:33]:
So what is driving perfection? Fear. That’s what I want you to realize. It’s not because you want to do so well. No. You’re afraid of something. That’s why you don’t want to make a mistake. That’s why you don’t want to let others help you. That’s why you cannot submit this draft right now.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:41:50]:
Even though you’ve read it a hundred times. You are afraid of something. And the way that you fight fear is with facts. Because anxiety will always try to scare you with something that hasn’t even happened yet. Something that is so out of this world, but it seems very real. Because it’s a threat. And threats make us afraid. That’s why in the part of the brain that processes emotions.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:42:13]:
Put it in the chat. If you remember the part of the brain that I mentioned that processes emotions, especially anxiety and fear, that fight or flight. What part of the brain is that Starts with an A. Put it in the chat if you remember. This is not a pop quiz, I promise you. Let’s fight this fear with some facts. Yes, Michelle. The amygdala.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:42:35]:
Woo hoo. I wish I had some prizes to give out, but I don’t. I just have little zoom, little zoom responses. So let me find a nice little zoom response. Woohoo. Thanks, Michelle. Okay, so like I said, perfection is always changing. So that’s that.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:42:52]:
Success usually comes from persistence, not perfection. So remember what we said on the last slide. Being perfect is the key to high achievement. Now, high achievement usually comes from persistence. You’re learning from mistakes and you’re adaptable. So once you’ve made mistakes and kind of learned what to do better, then you change, you modify, you try again. That’s where success comes from. Mistakes are essential for learning and growth.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:43:20]:
Because remember what the myth was, Mistakes are a sign of incompetence. No, mistakes are actually essential. They are a part of your success process. You will not be able to succeed without making a mistake and without failing at something. Okay? Criticism is inevitable because remember the myth was if everything is perfect, no one can criticize you. Well, you’re going to receive critique no matter what. So you’re going to be constantly evaluated and critiqued. You’re not going to be able to avoid it.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:43:52]:
So that’s why it’s very important to know. How do you conceptualize critique? Is it because everything I’m doing is garbage and I must have done something wrong? No, it actually could be because you’re doing something right and doing something well. Or this could be information to help me become better. Right. Versus internalizing it and taking it personal. Perfectionism often undermines confidence by tying self worth to performance. Because remember that last myth was perfectionism improves confidence. Actually, it undermines confidence because it is tied to your self worth based off of how you perform.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:44:28]:
So if you do not perform well, that means that you are not looking at yourself well, you’re looking at yourself as incompetent or stupid or I don’t deserve to be in this program and I should have known way better than that. I’m going to have to study a lot harder. Your self worth is low because you perceive your performance as low. So you actually are not confident. Right. So I wanted to insert this research in here because I was really, really just intrigued about everything that I was learning. And so I just wanted to see kind of what research had to say about perfectionism. And so I was looking at this study about academic perfectionism, psychological well being, and suicidal ideation in college students.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:45:12]:
And so Fernandez, Garcia and colleagues looked at a group of over 1200 Bachelor’s, Master’s and doctoral university students. And these students all completed a questionnaire that measured different things. And the study aimed to analyze the extent to which high levels of perfectionism could compromise psychological well being. And so what the results showed was that there was a direct and significant relationship between perfectionism and academic performance. So when you have a direct significant relationship or positive relationship, that means as variable A goes up, variable B goes up. So variable A, you know, is perfectionism, variable B is academic performance. So students who reported endorsing perfectionism at higher levels also had higher academic performance than those who did not report that they were operating under perfectionism. But for some students, there was a significant but inverse relationship found between perfectionism and psychological well being.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:46:22]:
So we’re not talking about academic performance anymore. Now the variable C is well being. So when we have a significant an inverse relationship. That means as variable A goes up, variable C goes down. Right. So students who reported endorsing perfectionism at higher levels, their well being was at a lower level. Right. And so this was indicative of higher, higher numbers of students reporting that they were experiencing suicidal thoughts.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:47:01]:
Right. So when we see students reporting a higher level of suicidal ideation or thoughts, that means your mental health is low, if that is high. Right. So when we talk about an inverse relationship, that means one goes up, one goes down. The more perfectionism you endorse, the lower your psychological well being is, which opens up to the door to poor mental health symptoms like suicidal thoughts. So I just thought that that was really interesting and I wanted to share that information with you all. Okay, so now we’re at the conclusion. So now we’re going to wrap up.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:47:39]:
And I love quotes. I’m a quote person, I love quotes. So I just wanted to leave you all with some quotes that I found in regards to perfectionism. Done is better than perfect. Now, the quote that I found was from Sheryl Sandberg, but I actually have heard this same statement many times throughout my grad school experience, especially when I was working on my dissertation. And I mentioned that because a lot of doctoral students who are working on dissertations want a perfect dissertation. It has to be perfect. Because this is high stakes.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:48:15]:
If I don’t pass this, I don’t get my doctorate. And if I don’t get my doctorate, what does this whole experience mean? Going back to what you said, Michelle, all the money that I invested and all the time that I spent and all the courses that I took and the grades that I if I do not pass the dissertation, I don’t get my doctorate. So it’s a very pressuring environment. There’s a lot on the line here. But I remember a dissertation coach, Dr. Ramon Goins, I remember him saying, you know, a done dissertation is better than a perfect one. And I’ve also been told too, which was comforting in a way, your dissertation may not be your best piece of work. More than likely it’s probably not going to be because it’s the first big project that you’ve ever done as a brand new doctor.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:49:05]:
So it’s probably not going to be your best work. Your best work is going to come after that when you have more time and more experiences and more exposure to doing research and writing and all of these other things. So I want you to take this with you. Done is better than perfect. Get it done. Just get it done. You know, finish the Chapter, finish the test. Like, don’t overanalyze what you’ve done.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:49:29]:
Send the email. Like, get it done. Because if you’re wasting time over analyzing to make sure that it’s perfect, then that means that something is left unfinished and unsubmitted and you’re not achieving the goal, which is to complete what you start. Have the courage to be imperfect. I really love this because it is an act of courage to embrace your imperfections. It is. It really, really is. I want you all to think of yourself as courageous.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:49:59]:
It is courageous to know that, hey, I have some shortcomings. Hey, you know, I don’t always get it right all the time. I don’t really know this area very well. You know, it takes courage to stand up to perfection. It takes courage. It takes bravery to stand up and look perfection in the eye and say, I’m okay with not knowing how to do this. I’m okay with asking for help. It’s okay, it’s okay.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:50:25]:
I gotta see. It’s okay. I’m gonna do better next time. The most valuable thing you can make is a mistake because you can’t learn anything from being perfect. And remember what I said mistakes are. I know you’re going to have. I know you got some amazing professors, some amazing instructors, some amazing mentors, right? But the best teacher that you’re going to have, not just in grad school but in life, are mistakes. You are going to learn a lot from them.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:50:54]:
I don’t want you to just think about academic mistakes. I want you to think about life mistakes that you’ve made. Okay? Think about the value of the lesson and the mistakes. If you are so busy internalizing and questioning why you made the mistake in the first place, guess what’s going to happen? You’re going to miss the lesson. And when you miss the lesson, that means you got to repeat the course. I’m not just talking about in grad, in the grad program. I’m talking about in life. When you miss the lesson, you have to retake the course.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:51:23]:
Trust me, I’ve been a summer, a summer school student in life many times before. Okay, you want to make sure that. And I know sometimes we can get bummed out when we know that, that we’ve made a mistake. And, you know, give yourself that permission, right? But draw the line and say, okay, what am I supposed to look for here? What am I looking at here? Okay, so if you are experiencing anxiety or fear or if you know your perfection, your perfectionistic behavior is running your life. And you need help. If you need help developing new ways of doing things. If you need skills, if you need tools, come caps. Come to caps.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:52:07]:
We’re located on the second floor of the University Center. I know that we have grad students who are online programs. Maybe they are not on campus. We can talk to you virtually via Zoom. If you want to inquire about setting up some counseling sessions so that you can have professional help standing up to perfection, building up that confidence in healthy and constructive ways, just go to umfl.edu caps. All of the information that you need to know will be found there as far as how to inquire about a consultation with us to potentially start services. And I also have my email address right there. So if you want to email me, please do.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:52:50]:
I will answer any questions that you have about mental health resources, perfectionism, like anything that we’ve talked about. And I am actually going to put a resource in the chat here, which is a book by Brene Brown. I’ve actually read this book and I’m. I hope I can find it. I’ve read this book. I’m actually reading it for the third time, but I’m gonna put it here in the chat. The book is called the Gifts of Imperfection. It’s a really good read.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:53:30]:
So I’m going to copy it here just as a recommendation and as a resource. Yep. And that is the conclusion of the presentation. So I know we have a couple of minutes left, so I’m going to stop sharing so that whoever, if you have any final thoughts or if there’s anything that you would like to express, you know, feel free to go ahead. I’m definitely opening up the floor to you all. Thank you so much for your transparency, Shannon. Like, that’s what I was hoping. I just want to encourage, you know, because we all struggle with things, you know, all of us.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:54:09]:
But struggles don’t define who we are. It just shines a light on an area that we can receive some help in. So that’s why it’s so important to ask for help. So thank you so much for your comment. So I’ll turn it back over to you, Dr. Lewis.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:54:22]:
Sounds good. Really appreciate it, Dr. Tookes, for all of this amazing information. This is something that I think everybody should be learning about because I think all of us have been impacted by this in some way through our graduate school experiences. And I love what you said about all of your faculty have experienced this in some way. And they may not talk about it, but they have dealt with it. The professionals on campus have dealt with it, they may still be dealing with it. You never know.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:54:52]:
You know, none of us. You can’t keep it in the back of your mind that I’m the only one that’s not perfect. Because no one around you is perfect. None of us are perfect. So I really appreciate, Dr. Tux, you sharing this today and thank you all for being here.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:55:06]:
Yeah, thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:55:08]:
Wish you all the best as you go through this term and beyond. If you need anything, please reach out. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master’s and doctorate programs. It’s if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you’re looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to seeing speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:55:47]:
If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu